Sid: Well, my guest Dr. Michael Brown is red hot for the Messiah; he has his doctorate degree in near eastern languages; he’s Semitic language scholar. He speaks reads or writes some 12 different languages. He’s a Bible scholar; he provokes me to jealousy. You and I we’re reading in English; he’s reading in Hebrew. I’m just curious Mike; “Do you feel that like you get more out of the word by reading in the original language than in the translations?
Michael: Well, yes and no absolutely in terms of this is how it was written. So an expression; a play on words the feel of it; the power of it; the precision of expression that you can only get by reading the original, so absolutely. I’m working on a commentary on Job right now. I’m living in the Hebrew; I wrote a commentary on Jeremiah and lived in the Hebrew of that. And so of course there are things that you can only get by reading the original. But I say “No,” in that God gave His word so that it could be translated into different languages, and there’s a certain power. I’ll gladly pick up my Bible and read in English and drink in the power and the life of the words. So everyone should be encouraged this is God’s word. It’s not like the Koran if you can’t study it in Arabic it’s not the Koran. No, God gave it in such a way that everyone could read and understand; so you should have confidence as you read your English Bibles good translations. But oh, digging into the original that’s why I spent all these years. So of course, it’s a delight; it’s a wonder and it also refutes a lot of error. Just simple things a lot of the hyper-grace teaching if people could read the Hebrew and Greek fluently they would have never come up with it.
Sid: But you know what, man’s heart according to Jeremiah, is so deceitful that if you give them an inch they’ll take a mile.
Michael: Oh no no no see that doesn’t apply to me any more I don’t have any remnant of any, this is what a hyper-grace teacher would say. “I have no remnant of a sinful nature. I have no remnant of the flesh. I am completely a new creation; not just positionally in Jesus but in reality therefore,” and some say “The battle with sin is decisively over and the spiritually is now effortless.”
Sid: What world are they living in? (Laughing) Well you know.
Michael: Well, it’s got to be self… okay there’s a reality and there’s a deception and that’s what I find throughout the hyper-grace message. And that’s why I didn’t call it counterfeit grace there is some that it’s pure counterfeit but some have a truth; a wonderful truth and they’ll quote a lot of scripture about that truth. But then they mix it with the error which is deception which leads to real serious deception which I’m watching unfold every day virtually and getting the horror stories about what’s happening. Constantly coming my way. So here’s the …
Sid: I want to give you an example, a pastor hears the hyper-grace message and decides it’s okay for him to divorce his wife. He remarries, he doesn’t repent of any sin; does he go to heaven?
Michael: God is his judge, but this much I know if someone dies an unrepentant adulterer. It’s one thing someone’s driving in their car and they think a wrong and they get in an accident and they’re not going to hell because they thought a wrong thought that’s just completely unscriptural. But if someone the words very clear on lives a persistent unrepentant lifestyle either they were never saved or they have rejected Jesus as Lord. I don’t like to think about losing our salvation; I like to think about forfeiting it. You have the right to walk away from God; God will not force you to stay with Him. I can turn my back on Him and walk away. 2nd Timothy 2:19 “The Lord knows those who are His.” That’s His side; our side “Let everyone who calls on the Name of the Lord depart from iniquity.” Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven.” A hyper-grace person says “Man that’s salvation by works.” I said “Oh no no that’s salvation; salvation really saves.” And if I reject it it saves me from sin; if I reject it and turn my back on God and deny His Lordship. How can I Sid divorce my wife with no Biblical grounds; marry someone else. Now I’m in adultery in God’s sight and go on like that in an unrepentant way and say “Jesus is my Lord.” He is not. He’s no longer my Lord. So someone can cast off the Lordship of Jesus and this is totally different than a believer saying “Lord I love You; I want to please you I’ve got this gambling thing and I’m struggling Lord help me?” God’s compassion is so great Sid that He forgives; He reaches out. We fall on our face and He picks us up; He’s loving; He’s kind; He compassionate but when we harden our heart and think that there’s no consequences to my sin or think that God doesn’t deal with sin any more. Or I can do whatever I want and it doesn’t affect my relationship with God, that’s danger. Sid there are hyper-grace teachers I document in my book who say this “No matter what you do it will have no effect on your relationship with God or it will have no effect on your salvation.” That is a dangerous deception.
Sid: What would a hyper-grace teacher, or better yet how come hyper-grace teachers don’t deal with “The day of the Lord, judgment, hell, heaven” how come?
Michael: Well, it contradicts the feel of the message. In other words if I’m just saying God is love; God is good; God is kind; God is compassionate and I leave out God is just, I leave out God is wrathful; I leave out God punishes sin. I leave out the rest of the message in my preaching and teaching to the church because hey that’s not for us. Any words of warning from Jesus no, no somehow it doesn’t apply to us. Any words of warning from Paul no, no that was for unbelievers in his congregation. Because God would not speak to us like that. If I’m going to do that now obviously how am I going to warn about the coming day of wrath. Paul thought that it was important to tell believers. Ephesians 5; Colossians 3 to tell believers “Do not live a certain way because the wrath of God is coming on those who do.” It’s like saying this “We have a safety zone here; we have a hurricane shelter in this building and there’s a massive hurricane coming so stay in the building because if you go out there you’re going to die.” It’s a warning of love. But I hear almost no warning. The only warning I hear from hyper-grace teachers is “Don’t get out from our teaching on grace; don’t listen to the warnings.” And Sid, you asked how someone could come out with the idea.
Sid: Right.
Michael: That spirituality’s effortless. Here’s the truth of it; when I come to know that God has forgiven me not because of my good works but because of what Jesus did. When I fellowship with Him; when I enjoy Him it’s just it feels automatic. You just want to please God; you want to pray; you want to witness. But the fact is that’s not the whole story. Jesus says “We have to take up our cross deny ourselves daily.” Paul talks about running a race and being disciplined. 1st Corinthians 9:24 to 27. He tells Timothy 2nd Timothy 2:3 “Endure hardship as a good soldier of Messiah Jesus.” I have a whole book, a whole chapter in my “Hyper-grace” book called “The Spirituality effortless” where I interview Jesus; where I interview Paul, I interview Peter and say “What do you make of this concept and one after another after another says “You have to push; you have to strive so.” So working with the Lord in the Spirit we say no to the flesh; it is an ongoing battle Sid.
Sid: Okay, what do you mean by the new Gnostics? First what is Gnosticism?
Michael: Gnosticism was a heresy; it’s seeds began in New Testament times but doesn’t become fully developed until after the time of the New Testament. There are different factions of Gnosticism found in both within both Jewish and Christian groups. But they basically believe this “The material world itself was evil; that the God of the Old Testament was evil.” They call them the demiurge. He came forth from the one true God; the Father of the Lord Jesus who’s good and loving and compassionate. And He created the world because the world the material realm itself is evil. The Son of God came into this world in the body of Jesus, but then he left before the crucifixion because he’s not going to be touched by the things of this world. And the Gnostic’s didn’t put emphasis on relationship, but on revelation. “Ah, we’ve got the knowledge. That’s why the word “gnosis” in Greek is the word for knowledge; that’s what they were called. “I’ve got the revelation; I’ve received this deeper truth and I am pure spirit; I don’t even sin because I’m not in the body anymore.” And Sid some of the hyper-grace teaching is going in the direction of Gnosticism, undeniably. I’m talking about people that are in the Lord now who are preaching a lot of good stuff; it is now being mixed with gnostic error and even gnostic heresy. To the point that some are completely departing from the faith.
Sid: Okay, Mike what concerns you the most about the hyper-grace teaching?
Michael: The thing that concerns me the most is they’ve taken a glorious life-giving truth and mixed it with deadly error and distortion. It is a perverted grace message at times; it is a grace mixture. So here’s the terrible danger; a lot of people hear the good part and they’re changed Sid. I hear from them too; “Mike I’m delivered from legalism; I’m I’ve never loved Jesus so much, I’ve never prayed so much; I’ve never lived a holier life.” There’s something wonderful but because of the error that it’s mixed with it as people keep drinking it in it is unbalanced; it’s umbilical; what’s going to happen is that little by little people are going to start to die of the poison. And then others in order to justify error because we don’t deal with sin, that sin consciousness, that’s sin management, that’s behavior modification because God’s already forgiven my future sins. Because Holy Spirit doesn’t forgive me of sin because I don’t confess my sin because I’m not in the body I’m a spirit, I’m a soul and I don’t sin. Because of that deception people are going to have no accountability for what they do in the flesh. And ultimately yes people will walk away from Jesus in the name of grace.
Sid: Question, “How pervasive at this moment is this message with most of the hyper-grace teachers in Christianity today; how pervasive is this?”
Michael: Well, every hyper-grace teacher I identify has hyper-grace has the mixture. Some of them have great stuff and the mixture is minor. Some of them it’s about half and half; some of them it’s mainly the error. But the hyper-grace message is spreading like wild-fire through the Body. Prominent TV teachers and preachers; prominent authors; folks in different parts of the world espousing this. And it’s almost like a cult like following because many of the people that have been helped by it are really sensitive and they’ve really been helped. The moment you come with a criticism it’s like “Don’t touch my baby; this changed my life!” And it’s such a harsh reaction.
Sid: Okay, we’re out of time right now.
Tags: its supernatural, Sid Roth