Sid: Now I’ve got a problem and if I’ve got a problem you’re about ready to hear about it. Here’s the problem that I have. I really do not think that there is much difference between great charismatic Pentecostal Churches and great Evangelical, and here’s the rub, Seeker Sensitive churches. It’s almost as if and this is the impression I’m getting right or wrong this is the impression. I’m entitled it’s my show, the impression that I’m getting right now is that the Charismatic-Pentecostal see the huge growth the seeker-sensitive churches are getting and so they’re saying “Well, maybe it’s 21st century it’s a new generation let’s just calm down the Pentecostal, the Charismatic, the craziness if you will from a worldly standpoint and we’ll get the same people the seeker-sensitive churches are getting.” Now I don’t know that they’re intentionally even thinking this but their actions are speaking louder than their words. A recent study was done of a major Charismatic denomination and they’re was such a high percentage of members that do not even speak in unknown tongues. I remember talking to a pastor of the leading charismatic church in the area that I live in. I said “Well, I doubt that 40% of your congregation including the deacon’s even speak in tongues.” And he said “Sid I don’t think it’s that high!” Something’s rotten in Denmark; you know what I mean? I have on the telephone Tim Enloe; I’m speaking to him at his home in Wichita, Kansas. Now Tim has been called by God to reach this current generation in a way this current generation will understand of how to move in the Spirit the way the first church did. Now Tim, I’ve just mouthed off on what is deep, deep burning inside of me and getting me very upset by the minute. I want to hear your spin.
Tim: I totally agree with you and what you’ve just shared is very consistent with what we see in the last well 11 plus years of full time ministry. Ministering specifically on the Baptism on the Holy Spirit and ministering primarily in Pentecostal Charismatic Churches. The grand number of people attending those churches have not experienced that major doctrinal experience that is the apostolic blessing of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. And so this is a great issue that burns in our heart as well. But thank God something is happening. It was about maybe a year and half ago or so the Lord spoke to me when I was praying about this very issue that God was going to send another charismatic outpouring upon America and upon the world. And this time it would not just encompass mainline churches, thank God that it did in the 70’s; 80’s early 60’s even. But this time it would encompass the entirety in the church life and it would function not only in the Catholics, and the Lutherans, and the Methodists, and the Episcopalians, but the God would breathe fresh again upon the Pentecostal’s and the Charismatic’s as well.
Sid: Well, I’ll tell you what I’m in agreement with that prophecy but it’s going to take God because man is holding back His controlling.
Tim: That is absolutely true and I know that as we prayed even before the broadcast the scripture that burns in my heart that came from your lips in prayer. And that is “Not by might; nor by power but by My Spirit.” One of the things that I’ve noticed that really begins to cyphen in the working in of the working in of the Holy Spirit is man’s desperation. And I believe we really have come to our ends rope of slick marketing and nifty tricks; and free pizza and everything trying to get people to come to church. We have to present a powerful gospel like the apostles presented in the book of Acts a gospel of signs and wonders. A gospel that makes people say “What must we do to be saved?” Like happened right after the first day of Pentecost.
Sid: You know Tim I work as you’re probably aware I happen to be a Jewish Believer in Jesus and I work in reaching; I’m an evangelist. Which means I want to reach all people but I believe the spiritual admonishment from scripture has never changed; the pattern has never changed to reach out to the Jew first to open up a supernatural door of evangelism to all people. However, I come from a group of friends that use cerebral mental apologetics to reach Jewish people with the gospel and the results are feeble. I have to go back to the book and the book says the Jew requires a sign. As a matter of fact our cousins the Muslims, the Arabs, they require a sign too. I guess cousins think alike but there use to be a commercial on television for a major hamburger carryout fast food place and it was “Where’s the beef.” And that’s what the world is looking for and desperately want. But where’s the beef? Where’s the authentic. We see the counterfeit, we see the hype but where’s the authentic? And as a matter of fact I am on a bandwagon; I am on a roll right now Tim. But when I see and God forgive me… let me tell you something else I see. I see mannerisms, expressions which is nothing more than tradition that at one point was so saturated in the Holy Spirit people had to speak a certain way. People had to fall, people had to look a little weird couldn’t even catch their breath when the preached. But today, it’s all tradition learned by rote.
Tim: It’s exactly right. We have adopted an American Pharisee-ism that has really become it’s a culture. When you go to church all of a sudden you begin to talk differently; you begin to act differently. I’m sure that you’ve seen in many times as you to pray for people they’re kind of scoping out where they’re going to fall on the floor and all of these sorts of things. My own experience and perhaps this is a need-jerk reaction but a lot of times I see them acting that way I just encourage them to sit down and I’ll kneel down beside them and just pray on the floor gently. Because what they anticipate is probably not what God is wanting to specifically; or the way that God is wanting to specifically work. Since God usually doesn’t work in the way that we anticipate. And instead to expect a deeper inner life change that produces power for witness and power for Christianity in their life instead of a sudden moment of thrill.
Sid: Let me tell you something that I’ve gleaned from the first church because I really study it from the Jewish perspective. And of course the first church was all Jewish; this is the way it worked. There was a miracle, this miracle grabbed the undivided attention of the people that were into traditional Judaism would never had looked at something else especially this Jesus. But the miracle grabbed their attention; then they heard the word of God. The word of God because their spirit was now open to the supernatural; the word of God penetrated and then they did not wait for a particular 10 series discipleship class before they could be baptized. They went into something called the mikvah; which is where Christian baptism came from; they instantly went down totally immersed in the water. The Jewish believers believed that when they would go down that something supernatural would occur and it did. They would have supernatural deliverance of the demons; they would come up with hands raised worshiping God in unknown tongues and they’d go out and reproduce. That’s normal Christianity, what do we have now Tim?
Tim: Well I am disappointed at where we are now but I am so hopeful because of what I believe God is doing. He promised that in the last days He would pour His Spirit out upon all flesh. And that not only a promise for today but that’s a promise that began 2000 years ago. And that began with Jesus’ promise to the disciples; the early Christian believers. He said to them; Acts 20 “You will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you. Now I like you I’ve heard a million messages on that perhaps in my life and I’ve heard power. The Greek word for power there is dunamas or thenamese, that’s dynamite. And that’s where we get our word dynamite.
Sid: I’ve always been taught that until I read your book.
Tim: That’s not exactly what the means at all; dynamite wouldn’t be invented for another 700 years after the fact. A dear friend of mine that does quite a historian that brought me to light on this. And really the clearest rendering of that word dunamas or thenamese is necessary power. You will receive whatever power or force is necessary when the Holy Spirit comes upon you. And you will be my witnesses. And we think a lot of times as witnesses as being this grumpy person who knocks on the door and says “Hey, you’re going to hell read this track and move to the next door.” Well, that’s not witnessing. Witnesses there is a legal term; I’m a courtroom witness I’m a firsthand experiencer. I know I have experience. Let me tell you what is happening in my life; this is my pertaining witness to this event. And so when Jesus said “You’ll receive necessary power.” What happened? After they received this gift of the baptism of the Holy Spirit their experience of who Jesus was; who the Messiah was so turned upside down because now they were now arms length somewhere behind ministering; watching a priest rather minister behind a veil. Or watching the priest rather descend behind the veil rather going back to minister on Yom Kippur only once a year. Now all of a sudden that same Holy of Holies; that same shekinah glory was now engulfing them as they were being literally baptized in the Holy Spirit; the Spirit of God Himself. They were being saturated; that baptism metaphor as you mentioned before. They were plunged totally under the service of the water. They were doing a cannonball in the deep end so to speak and the Holy Spirit of God Himself; an encounter that even Moses Himself did not have in the Old Covenant. Prophet Par Excellence and now these New Testament Believers because of the completed work of the Messiah were now entering into this Divine moment of being engulfed in God Himself. And then all of a sudden as the onlookers said “What in the word is going on?” Peter had to explain to them, he stood up now with… remember this is the same gentleman just 51 days prior couldn’t even acknowledge his faith in Christ, or that he was from Galilee. All of a sudden now he’s standing up saying “Hey everyone listen.” The necessary power was there, that dunamas; the power to speak which he did not possess was there.
Sid: Tim, I’m sorry we’re out of time.
Tags: its supernatural, Sid Roth