Sid: Now I’ve got a problem and if I’ve got a problem you’re about ready to hear about it. Here’s the problem that I have. I really do not think that there is much difference between great charismatic Pentecostal Churches and great Evangelical, and here’s the rub, Seeker Sensitive churches. It’s almost as if and this is the impression I’m getting right or wrong this is the impression. I’m entitled it’s my show, the impression that I’m getting right now is that the Charismatic-Pentecostal see the huge growth the seeker-sensitive churches are getting and so they’re saying “Well, maybe it’s 21st century it’s a new generation let’s just calm down the Pentecostal, the Charismatic, the craziness if you will from a worldly standpoint and we’ll get the same people the seeker-sensitive churches are getting.” Now I don’t know that they’re intentionally even thinking this but their actions are speaking louder than their words. A recent study was done of a major Charismatic denomination and they’re was such a high percentage of members that do not even speak in unknown tongues. I remember talking to a pastor of the leading charismatic church in the area that I live in. I said “Well, I doubt that 40% of your congregation including the deacon’s even speak in tongues.” And he said “Sid I don’t think it’s that high!” Something’s rotten in Denmark; you know what I mean? I have on the telephone Tim Enloe; I’m speaking to him at his home in Wichita, Kansas. Now Tim has been called by God to reach this current generation in a way this current generation will understand of how to move in the Spirit the way the first church did. Now Tim, I’ve just mouthed off on what is deep, deep burning inside of me and getting me very upset by the minute. I want to hear your spin.
Tim: I totally agree with you and what you’ve just shared is very consistent with what we see in the last well 11 plus years of full time ministry. Ministering specifically on the Baptism on the Holy Spirit and ministering primarily in Pentecostal Charismatic Churches. The grand number of people attending those churches have not experienced that major doctrinal experience that is the apostolic blessing of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. And so this is a great issue that burns in our heart as well. But thank God something is happening. It was about maybe a year and half ago or so the Lord spoke to me when I was praying about this very issue that God was going to send another charismatic outpouring upon America and upon the world. And this time it would not just encompass mainline churches, thank God that it did in the 70’s; 80’s early 60’s even. But this time it would encompass the entirety in the church life and it would function not only in the Catholics, and the Lutherans, and the Methodists, and the Episcopalians, but the God would breathe fresh again upon the Pentecostal’s and the Charismatic’s as well.
Sid: Well, I’ll tell you what I’m in agreement with that prophecy but it’s going to take God because man is holding back His controlling.
Tim: That is absolutely true and I know that as we prayed even before the broadcast the scripture that burns in my heart that came from your lips in prayer. And that is “Not by might; nor by power but by My Spirit.” One of the things that I’ve noticed that really begins to cyphen in the working in of the working in of the Holy Spirit is man’s desperation. And I believe we really have come to our ends rope of slick marketing and nifty tricks; and free pizza and everything trying to get people to come to church. We have to present a powerful gospel like the apostles presented in the book of Acts a gospel of signs and wonders. A gospel that makes people say “What must we do to be saved?” Like happened right after the first day of Pentecost.
Sid: You know Tim I work as you’re probably aware I happen to be a Jewish Believer in Jesus and I work in reaching; I’m an evangelist. Which means I want to reach all people but I believe the spiritual admonishment from scripture has never changed; the pattern has never changed to reach out to the Jew first to open up a supernatural door of evangelism to all people. However, I come from a group of friends that use cerebral mental apologetics to reach Jewish people with the gospel and the results are feeble. I have to go back to the book and the book says the Jew requires a sign. As a matter of fact our cousins the Muslims, the Arabs, they require a sign too. I guess cousins think alike but there use to be a commercial on television for a major hamburger carryout fast food place and it was “Where’s the beef.” And that’s what the world is looking for and desperately want. But where’s the beef? Where’s the authentic. We see the counterfeit, we see the hype but where’s the authentic? And as a matter of fact I am on a bandwagon; I am on a roll right now Tim. But when I see and God forgive me… let me tell you something else I see. I see mannerisms, expressions which is nothing more than tradition that at one point was so saturated in the Holy Spirit people had to speak a certain way. People had to fall, people had to look a little weird couldn’t even catch their breath when the preached. But today, it’s all tradition learned by rote.
Tim: It’s exactly right. We have adopted an American Pharisee-ism that has really become it’s a culture. When you go to church all of a sudden you begin to talk differently; you begin to act differently. I’m sure that you’ve seen in many times as you to pray for people they’re kind of scoping out where they’re going to fall on the floor and all of these sorts of things. My own experience and perhaps this is a need-jerk reaction but a lot of times I see them acting that way I just encourage them to sit down and I’ll kneel down beside them and just pray on the floor gently. Because what they anticipate is probably not what God is wanting to specifically; or the way that God is wanting to specifically work. Since God usually doesn’t work in the way that we anticipate. And instead to expect a deeper inner life change that produces power for witness and power for Christianity in their life instead of a sudden moment of thrill.
Sid: Let me tell you something that I’ve gleaned from the first church because I really study it from the Jewish perspective. And of course the first church was all Jewish; this is the way it worked. There was a miracle, this miracle grabbed the undivided attention of the people that were into traditional Judaism would never had looked at something else especially this Jesus. But the miracle grabbed their attention; then they heard the word of God. The word of God because their spirit was now open to the supernatural; the word of God penetrated and then they did not wait for a particular 10 series discipleship class before they could be baptized. They went into something called the mikvah; which is where Christian baptism came from; they instantly went down totally immersed in the water. The Jewish believers believed that when they would go down that something supernatural would occur and it did. They would have supernatural deliverance of the demons; they would come up with hands raised worshiping God in unknown tongues and they’d go out and reproduce. That’s normal Christianity, what do we have now Tim?
Tim: Well I am disappointed at where we are now but I am so hopeful because of what I believe God is doing. He promised that in the last days He would pour His Spirit out upon all flesh. And that not only a promise for today but that’s a promise that began 2000 years ago. And that began with Jesus’ promise to the disciples; the early Christian believers. He said to them; Acts 20 “You will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you. Now I like you I’ve heard a million messages on that perhaps in my life and I’ve heard power. The Greek word for power there is dunamas or thenamese, that’s dynamite. And that’s where we get our word dynamite.
Sid: I’ve always been taught that until I read your book.
Tim: That’s not exactly what the means at all; dynamite wouldn’t be invented for another 700 years after the fact. A dear friend of mine that does quite a historian that brought me to light on this. And really the clearest rendering of that word dunamas or thenamese is necessary power. You will receive whatever power or force is necessary when the Holy Spirit comes upon you. And you will be my witnesses. And we think a lot of times as witnesses as being this grumpy person who knocks on the door and says “Hey, you’re going to hell read this track and move to the next door.” Well, that’s not witnessing. Witnesses there is a legal term; I’m a courtroom witness I’m a firsthand experiencer. I know I have experience. Let me tell you what is happening in my life; this is my pertaining witness to this event. And so when Jesus said “You’ll receive necessary power.” What happened? After they received this gift of the baptism of the Holy Spirit their experience of who Jesus was; who the Messiah was so turned upside down because now they were now arms length somewhere behind ministering; watching a priest rather minister behind a veil. Or watching the priest rather descend behind the veil rather going back to minister on Yom Kippur only once a year. Now all of a sudden that same Holy of Holies; that same shekinah glory was now engulfing them as they were being literally baptized in the Holy Spirit; the Spirit of God Himself. They were being saturated; that baptism metaphor as you mentioned before. They were plunged totally under the service of the water. They were doing a cannonball in the deep end so to speak and the Holy Spirit of God Himself; an encounter that even Moses Himself did not have in the Old Covenant. Prophet Par Excellence and now these New Testament Believers because of the completed work of the Messiah were now entering into this Divine moment of being engulfed in God Himself. And then all of a sudden as the onlookers said “What in the word is going on?” Peter had to explain to them, he stood up now with… remember this is the same gentleman just 51 days prior couldn’t even acknowledge his faith in Christ, or that he was from Galilee. All of a sudden now he’s standing up saying “Hey everyone listen.” The necessary power was there, that dunamas; the power to speak which he did not possess was there.
Sid: Tim, I’m sorry we’re out of time.
Tags: its supernatural, Sid Roth
Sid: My guest is red hot for the Messiah but he was going through a horrible time at age 21 Jeff Burke who I have in the studio right here from Cartersville, Georgia; was Pasturing a Baptist Church. His Father was a Baptist preacher; his father actually moved in Words of Wisdom even before he was filled with the Spirit. But at that time he had the typical Baptist theology; which is tongues is of the devil. Jeff was very frustrated as a pastor because he read about all the great miracles in the Bible but he didn’t see it happen in his life. He wouldn’t look into the charismatic dimension because he thought that that was of the devil. And little by little he started investigating the New Age and he got sucked in. But he went into witchcraft; he thought that his power was enabling him to get successful and he really rose to the top. He left ministry and he was a very successful in business. All of a sudden his health started getting bad; because see that devil he just doesn’t play fair. And in the mean time his father was pasturing a little Baptist church in the country. He invited an evangelist to come in and speak and what happened Jeff?
Jeff: When the evangelist came in and he had known him years before and he told him before he came that I preach a little bit different than I used to. And actually my father said “Are you trying to tell me that you you’re baptized in the Holy Ghost?” He said “I am” he said “Well, come on anyway but just don’t bother my people with it.” (Laughing)
Sid: (Laughing)
Jeff: So he came on down and what began to happen is that some things happened with my dad some miracles actually. The man slammed; he got his fingers slammed in the door. He held his finger up and said “In the Name of Jesus” instantly all the broken skin, the blood and the crushed finger totally popped out.
Sid: Now was this the man or your father?
Jeff: This was the man that came and so my father witnessed that. And there were other things that would happen. One other instance that went to visit a couple that actually was in witchcraft. They actually sicked a German Shepherd on them and he just turned around and said “In the Name of Jesus” the German Shepherd skidded to a stop and ran off. They got in the car and they got stuck in the mud. He said “I have an angel. Get us out.” And the car was just like thrown out of the mud. So things like that began to happen. (Laughing)
Sid: That would get my attention.
Jeff: So praise the Lord things all week began to happen. Not so much at the church but with my father and mother. And on the last night after the service he said “I want you to tell me about the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.” And so he went through scripture with him and ministered to him and they laid hands on them the evangelist and his wife and they both got filled with the Holy Spirit. The giftings that had been in dad all of a sudden just began to explode and many things happened after that. He went to church Sunday morning; went to unlock the church door and the key melted in his hand. And curled up in his hand; to this day I think he still has the key in an envelope somewhere. But they began so much to just go into the things of the Spirit; things of God. They began to pray for me and…
Sid: Now that’s when things got pretty tough for you. But even before you get there you told me that your father had extraordinary faith for the weather. Tell me something you remember seeing with your eyes.
Jeff: Down in Birmingham, Alabama actually there is a group of pastors and they asked him will you go outside the city here and we would like you to just speak to this lady here and minister to this lady. So he went in; he sat down and he just began to minister to her and she was in a place where she didn’t believe she had any worth and that God didn’t love her. And he say’s “God wants to show you He definitely loves you.” He said “First of all you have a letter,” and he said “This is what the letter says ‘You’re pocketbook is on the back of your bed.’” He says “Go get the pocketbook and pull out the letter and this is what it says.” Well, she did and of course it was exactly what he said. And he said “Now God wants to show that He loves you; so it’s going to begin to rain very lightly.” And so it began to rain very lightly.” He said “Now God really wants to show you that He loves you so it’s going to begin to rain very hard.” So it began to rain very hard.
Sid: That is extraordinary supernatural gifting of faith.
Jeff: Amen, praise the Lord. So he then said, “Now God really, really wants you to know that He loves you and this He’s going to do this for you. It’s going to start hailing,” and so hail balls began to hit the top of the house.
Sid: Hm.
Jeff: And by this time these other pastors were hanging around with their jaw dropped. (Laughing)
Sid: (Laughing)
Jeff: And wound up the lady really got set free and ministered to and really began to understand that God would do those things for her; just for her. And bless her and so she was set free. And they went out in the yard and some of them got a little bag, “baggies,” and started putting some these hail balls in there to freeze them. (Laughing) Because they knew nobody was going to believe them.
Sid: Well now, let’s go back to you. Here you’re successful in business and your parents get Spirit-Filled and they start praying for you. Now there is nothing more powerful than a husband and wife ganging up on an unsaved child, or a backslidden child as you were. What was going on in your life as they started to pray?
Jeff: Well, I was in the midst of pretty heavy drugs. I was drinking everyday but things would begin to happen. I walked into my crew room one day and I was actually taking drugs with a Voodoo priestess that worked for me and I’d go to her house; almost lost my life over there almost 2 or 3 times. So she would light the black candles and all of that stuff. But she was reading people’s palms. So I walked into the crew room and she was reading everybody’s’ palm and I said “Listen could you read my palm.” And so she took my hand; she said a couple of things and then she took my hand, folded it, set it back down on the table and she folded her arms and looked at me. And she said “I’m sorry I can go no further with you.” And I said “What did you see; am I going to die what is it that you see that’s so scary?” And she said “You won’t understand.” And I said “Well, give me a shot anyway; please tell me just don’t leave me hanging like this.” And she said “You won’t understand this, she said “But you are protected by a high power than I serve and that higher power will not allow me to go any further with you.” And so praise the Lord at that…
Sid: Did you at the time did you realize that it had to do with your parents praying for you or no?
Jeff: Oh, I had no clue; I had no clue. I would go home only at Christmas and normally stay for a couple of hours. But they kept praying; they wouldn’t jump on me or anything they would just pray.
Sid: Now, you were in a bar one time and all of a sudden you heard a strange voice. Tell me about that.
Jeff: I was sitting and the young lady that I was with had gone to dance someone and I was just sitting at the table drinking. And all of a sudden I heard a voice and the voice said “These are not your people, why don’t you get up and go home to your own people?” And I just thought, “Man, I got some really strong drink.” I didn’t realize…
Sid: You didn’t realize that that was God dealing with you?
Jeff: No, I didn’t realize it was God; I thought that maybe I was just getting drunk or something.
Sid: Well, how bad did things get for you?
Jeff: Well, I reached a point where I just said “I don’t want to live anymore.” And I came to a place to commit suicide and I’m going to take my own life because life’s just not worth living.” So I want and got a bottle of sleeping pills and I took them, I took the bottle. So I went and laid down on the bed because I figured I’d fall asleep and so I kept looking at the ceiling.
Sid: You took the whole bottle you’d do worse than fall asleep you’d probably die; go ahead.
Jeff: So I’m looking at the ceiling and I keep looking, I keep looking and finally the sun comes up and I still had not gone to sleep. And I’m going “Gosh, nothings working I must have gotten a hold of some really bad stuff.” So I didn’t know what to do so I got up and went to work; and I went to work and I came back home and I laid back down again. And so I looked at the ceiling again; I kept looking at the ceiling, looking at the ceiling, looking at the ceiling. And the sun came up for the second day so I got up and went to work again. Now I did not know this until later; but my mother was in a prayer meeting and my daddy was leading this prayer meeting. And she stood up and she said “Listen God has just spoken to me, and God has just told me that my son is in trouble; and what I want to do is can we stop and pray for him.” And so she began to lead and prayer and she prayed the prayer that Hannah prayed for Samuel and she said “Lord as long as he lives he belongs to you.” And whatever you choose to do with him is whatever you want to do do it with him; but I totally release him into your hands and I give him up.” And so she prayed that prayer and I stayed awake for 2 days; I…
Sid: Two days and how many bottles of pills?
Jeff: It was a whole bottle of pills; yeah “Praise the Lord.”
Sid: You should have died; you didn’t die. You should have at least fallen asleep; you didn’t fall asleep. You’re up for 2 days; I’ll tell you what your mother’s got powerful prayers!
Jeff: She does, she does.
Sid: Okay, we’re out of time right now; Mishpochah we’ll pick up right here on tomorrow’s broadcast. I almost hate to spend so much time on BC because God’s using you in such an outstanding way in the supernatural now as a believer.
Tags: its supernatural, Sid Roth
Sid: We want everyone everywhere to be in the power and the glory. The power comes from food that God has put on earth that gives your body the vitality, the energy. You don’t have the same diseases most other people have; the weight, the mental ability. You become what God created you to be using the things He put on this earth and then the supernatural glory. And I’ve never seen anyone combine the two together but I have David Herzog and we’re talking about his brand new book “Jump-Start” and his special DVD “Walking in the Glory Every Day.” A how to step by step of how you can walk in the glory of God. David explain to me how this works with especially the 21 days and why did you pick 21 days to go from natural to supernatural health?
David: Well a lot of people know that it takes 21 days to break a habit and it’s kind of a known thing so that’s why we chose 21. Because if we do something for 21 says it becomes a pattern and a lot of times it will stick with you for the rest of your life, that’s why the 21.
Sid: Okay, well tell me how you’ve combined; because when you don’t combine the glory with the nutrition program people will just stop no matter how good it is.
David: Yeah, because God is the source of all life, all health, all everything so like I said before you can have health and eat healthy but have emotional or spiritual problems or mad at God or bitter. And those things will hinder you because eventually a lot of people eat out of just wounds in their heart. They’re depressed so they just eat, they call it comfort food, and so when you combine the glory and being close to God with diet it breaks off those bad habits and it helps you keep on the plan and stay close to God and fulfill your destiny.
Sid: And so you were telling me on yesterday’s broadcast it sounds wonderful I’ve been out to David’s house in Sedona, Arizona. He’s got a garden in his backyard, he takes the fresh organic food right out of his garden when he wakes up in the morning he puts it in his blender. I mean it sounds wonderful; maybe I can move in David? No, I’m just teasing. (Laughing)
David: I’ll get a room for you.
Sid: Okay, so but what else do you eat during the day?
David: Oh yeah the juicing and later on I’ll have a salad. I’ll put a nice healthy, put avocados, put veggies, bell peppers, put maybe a little bit of cranberries or raisins, so I just have fun with it you know.
Sid: What type of dressing do you use?
David: Oh I try to do my own type of dressings; sometime I put no dressing, sometimes I put vinegar and oil; it just depends you have a whole recipe thing in the book the kind of options you can use. It’s actually get’s fun after awhile.
Sid: Okay, and what do you usually snack on during the day?
David: Oh snack I do these super-green bars that I have; there’s like 100% raw organic. I do nuts, I’ll do fruit, I’ll do like I said I’ll do an avocado if I get really hungry in between. So there’s a lot of different options people have they don’t realize…
Sid: Now you’re a big advocate of coconut oil, I don’t hear much about that. Why do you like coconut oil so much?
David: Well, I like coconut and I like oil, 2 different things. Coconut oil I mix that in my smoothies, it helps you lose weight for one, great for your cholesterol, great for your skin, it like does so many different things. Coconut water in the summer is the best, it’s like if you take a coconut open it and drink it it’s equal to your like your plasma of your blood. They even use them as blood transfusions in 3rd world countries coconut water, so it’s so close to your blood type it hydrates you better than water. So in the summer time when you’re in hot tropical places you could actually live off coconut water it has so many nutrients it’s amazing.
Sid: What about garlic, did you really chew on garlic all day long when you had a flu condition; and if so was anyone reasonably close to you? No, I’m just teasing. (Laughing)
David: Well, there 2 different instances one of them with the garlic I had a toothache in Indonesia and I was doing some really large outdoor meetings and at night I could not sleep it was an abscessed tooth. So I chewed on a garlic clove that I got from the front desk of a restaurant and I kept chewing on it on that tooth and it completely dissolved the abscess problem with the tooth. It’s never come back and I could sleep; it’s never come back; so garlic works like an antibiotic. So what I had one time I was going to India and I got sick. I didn’t know what I had the doctor told me what I had but I didn’t want the antibiotics and I just put ginger, garlic, cayenne pepper in a shake some different things like this; hot peppers, and it completely flushed out what I had the flu and laryngitis in 48 hours. The doctor told me nothing would cure it but antibiotics. Two days later I was completely cured and went to India no problems.
Sid: Now you have a lot in your book about sleep; I mean I don’t know about you Mishpochah but I find this fascinating and the truth of the matter is yes God will heal you; God in the glory all things are possible. But why do you tempt God, why would you want to live your life with no energy? Why would you want to live your life heavy carrying an extra 50 pounds with you every day of your life? Why would you want to live your life with all of these dread diseases, and unfortunately these diseases come on Christians as well as non-Christians. Sleep you talk about very important; tell me how important it is and what we can do if we’re running into sleep problems?
David: Well believe it or not I’ve discovered the number one way that people gain weight is lack of sleep, even more than food. It’s amazing, but for instance if you go to bed every night really late your liver starts to detoxify about 10:00 PM to 2:00 AM. The people that go to bed every night past 2:00 AM or even midnight a lot of times their liver doesn’t have the time to detox. The toxins stay in the body and you start to gain weight. And then it affects your emotions, it affects your…people start getting depression, your hormones don’t get regulated like it supposed to. So many things happen when you sleep and when you don’t sleep your losing so much of life.
Sid: I notice that you talk about going to bed early; is there a reason for that?
David: Yeah, like I said if you to bed early your body resets itself; your metabolism…
Sid: What time do you recommend?
David: Well, the best time is by 10:00PM because between 10:00PM and 2:00 AM that’s the time your liver starts to detox. And that’s super important because everything goes to the liver. The liver doesn’t detox then you wake up feeling groggy, you’re tired; your body holds in toxins; doesn’t release the weight. So like if you were to sleep 8 hours and you slept from 2:00 AM for 8 hours or you went to bed at 10:00 PM for 8 hours you would feel way more rested if you went to bed at 10:00 PM. And a lot of time if you go to bed at 2 or 3 in the morning you need more than 8 hours because the body doesn’t feel rested.
Sid: Now, do you need 8 hours sleep?
David: No some people don’t; I feel better with 8 hours but some people can get by on 7. I recommend at least 7 but 8 hours. It’s kind of I noticed a balance that most people feel best highest performance 8 hours sleep.
Sid: What about people that either have difficulty falling asleep; difficulty staying asleep; waking up real early rather than their 7 – 8 hours. What do you recommend to them?
David: Okay well a lot of time you have habits they got to break so if you’re up late at night watching action movies and cell phone and then you want to go to bed you won’t be able to because all the electromagnetic stuff coming out of the electronics will keep you stimulated. So if you want to go to bed an hour or two before you want to go to bed turn off all electronics; read a book, drink some hot tea. Also there some natural stuff to help you get jump-started like melatonin. Your body normally produces melatonin when you’re younger, when your older it doesn’t produce enough so you can take some of those and that will help you start sleeping earlier. So there’s different things you can do and eventually you get a habit and your body will eventually start. You got to train your body to sleep is the problem; mental stress too you know. Let’s say you’re mad at someone at work or like the Bible says “You don’t let the sun go down on your anger.” If you’re thinking about something that’s bothering you and you sleep; a lot of times you can’t sleep. So you have to forgive, release the person, cover in the blood of Jesus then go to bed you’ll sleep a lot better. So a lot of different it depends on what the issue is causing the lack of sleep.
Sid: Out of curiosity have people read your book and solved their sleep deprivation problems?
David: Oh yeah, we’ve got people email us and said “Wow, I didn’t realize that sleeping next to my cell phone was hindering me from sleeping.” They stick it in the bathroom and suddenly they’re sleeping better.
Sid: Ah, there’s people that in their bedroom is a computer.
David: Exactly. Yeah I tell them “Take all of those and get into another room because it’s emanating really strong electromagnetic frequencies; even when it’s off a lot of time it’s still buzzing.” If you talk to different scientists they’ll tell you what kind of electronic stuff and how much the atoms that are in their and how fast they’re moving.” Your body can’t handle that and it keeps you stimulated and that’s why a lot of kids can’t sleep now.
Sid: So someone that’s watching TV to relax what they’re doing is they’re energizing themselves rather than relaxing.
David: Oh yeah, because not only does the electromagnet but the visuals; all the images coming at you so fast. And then your mind starts thinking about all the things you just saw. Somehow when you read a book it doesn’t have the same affect; you’re using your own imagination as you read; but when you’re watching TV someone’s shoving thoughts at you against your own will but basically you’re filtering all that through your mind. And then let’s say it’s an action movie it’s even more. So I mean you can watch a movie but I wouldn’t try to sleep right after; give yourself an hour to just kind of calm your body down so that you can sleep.
Sid: And out of curiosity what do you read an hour before you go to bed?
David: Oh, I read the Bible of course and I read good Christian books. I read anything that’s interesting that draws me closer to God or helps me change my life for the better.
Sid: I have to believe that the scriptures says “He give His beloved sleep.” I have to believe if you’re reading Psalms or you’re reading something in the Bible before you go to bed you’re going to sleep a whole lot better than if you’re watching a murder movie.
David: Of course, yeah Psalms actually is my favorite. If you read 5 Psalms a day or every night. A lot of times I read 5 Psalms at night; five chapters and then 1 Proverb in the morning and then I read other scriptures too. But Proverbs is great to just kind of jump-start your day.
Sid: David we’ve run out of time….
Tags: its supernatural, Sid Roth
Sid: I have on the telephone Dr. Debbie Rich, and Debbie went through such a devastating marriage. She got married at a young age 18 and this man physically abused her; emotionally abused her, cheated on her. She almost lost her life but she did everything possible to keep the marriage together. Finally God gave her a release; but at one of the worst parts when she was really losing it because of the abuse. This was back in 1984 you had a visitation; tell me about that Debbie.
Debbie: Yes, kneeling beside my bed I began to cry out to the Lord and say “Lord, I can’t even go on I have 3 children to raise, I know that I should be living in more victory than this but Lord the abuse is so devastating and I don’t know what to do any longer; I need you to be so real to me; I need You help.” And as I began to weep and to repent even at the suicidal thoughts that I’d been tempted with I was just calling out to Him. And the next thing I knew I literally saw myself leaving my body and I thought “What is happening?” And just in a moment quicker than I can even say moment I was before the Lord. I knew that I was in Heaven but I wasn’t looking at the city I was not looking at anything but looking into the face of Jesus Christ. And even as I get ready to say it now it’s difficult for me especially on the radio because I’m overcome when I go to tell it. But I was looking into the most liquid eyes of love that I don’t have words to describe that saw right through me. And I knew that I was looking in eyes that had been watching everything that I had been enduring. And as quickly as I could think anything that I wanted to ask Him; before I could say it the answer was back in my heart before I could see Him talk or move…
Sid: You know I’ve talked to many people that have had visitations to heaven and they way the same thing. That you communicate spirit to spirit in heaven not the way we do on earth.
Debbie: Exactly, exactly and the other things that I thought that I would have always asked were no longer important; they didn’t even come to me. The only thing that He was communicating to me was “How much He loved me; how much He had my life in the palm of His hand; that I had a call that He was going to use me to go all over the world that everything that He had shown me as a child was still going to come to past. Not to lose hope and that I would be amazed how He would fulfill it.” But in the middle of all of that it wasn’t even the call that was important it was how much He loved me. And I knew that when He loved me like that I could go on without asking anything I could just go on because I had a Lord who was a Lover of my soul. Who knew all things before the beginning to after the end.
Sid: But you had read this in the Bible you knew all of these things, but it obviously made quite a difference when you experienced what you knew.
Debbie: Oh, it made all the difference; I remember just looking at Him and thinking I just want to spend eternity looking at Him and that nothing else in my life mattered. It was a revelation far beyond your mental ascent; the Lord does have the hairs on our head numbered and He is our everything. All of a sudden I was experiencing that He’s my everything. And I saw myself go back into my body still kneeling by the bed and I was so affected there was so much glory on my face that when my husband got home from work that day I had made up my mind that I wasn’t going to tell him. I thought that it would open me up to more abuse and him laughing at me but when he walked in the door on his lunch break he said “What has happened to you?” And I started to tell him and I started weeping and I saw tears in his eyes and he asked me did he say anything about me? And I had to honestly say neither one of us talked about you or our relationship. He just showed me how much He loves me and I told my pastor that night; he had me share it with the congregation and we had people born again in our little Pentecostal church in Nebraska that night. And people in our small town where we were living saved when they heard about it but when that initial public testimony about it I never told all of these years until now. I believe I shared it with some of the Bible school students there in Tampa one night it came up unexpectedly but I never have until now.
Sid: Let me ask you a question because everything that I understand about forgiveness in the Bible is that is something that will just clog you up in your relationship with God and actually harm you physically in this life. And many people feel stop you from being able to go to heaven because Jesus said “I’ll forgive you with the same degree you forgive other people.” And if you’re not completely forgiven you obviously can’t go to heaven. How do you handle that worship leader that had an affair with your husband and then eventually married him?
Debbie: Yes, I forgave her a long time ago and of course the Lord enables you to do that with His grace. When you make the decision to do what the Bible says to do whether the feelings are there or not then His grace comes upon the scene and they come later. But the day came when the Holy Spirit spoke to me to go out and tell her that I had forgiven her. And so I went to her home and he was not home, my ex-husband and her husband at the time. And I grabbed her and held her and said “You need to go on in the Lord.” And she said “Oh, it’s too late for me Debbie, I’m proud of you and how you’ve gone on in Him.” But she said “That there’s too much that’s happened and it’s too late.” And I said “It’s not too late for the blood of Jesus; whether you’re the one that’s been abused and cheated on or your the one who cheated on someone it’s the same blood that will restore either one and the same God.” And I held her and told her I forgave her and that I wanted the best for her. And you know the day came because she lived through so much of the same thing that she and him divorced and I found out that she went on to Bible School and that she is doing missions work today. And I am truly so happy for her; and you’re absolutely right the Bible does say that with the degree that we will release others that the Lord Jesus will release us. And it was much more difficult for me to forgive myself for being stupid for marrying him for overriding the voice of Holy Spirit.
Sid: Did you early on did you blame yourself; did you think that you were just a no good person and that’s why you’re being abused or did you realize that it was strictly him and that he had a problem.
Debbie: I think that it was half and half and I knew that it was his problem but after awhile that you have been degraded I think that after awhile that you think “Well, I must be attracting that to myself and I must not have enough faith and this and that.” And the Lord spoke to me about that and said “Debbie, you must forgive yourself just like you’ve forgiven others; like you forgiven him, and you’ve forgiven the worship leader who is your friend.” You have to forgive yourself, it’s pride not to forgive yourself.
Sid: What does that entail how do you forgive yourself?
Debbie: Well, I said “Lord, I’ve always been hard on my self and an upbringing that was that way; Lord help the reality to reach me how much You have forgiven me so that I can forgive myself.” And that same Holy Spirit that was healing me up from the abuse flooded me again with another douse of His joy and His goodness and His reality. And I was able to forgive myself and say “Let’s put the past behind us at last and let’s walk in what God has for us for the future.” And I’ve done that ever since.
Sid: I want to talk about some miracles, tell me about a man from Washington by the name of Jeff Culver.
Debbie: Oh, yes it’s an awesome, awesome thing to watch happen. This man had been in a construction accident as a young man. He was still in his 20’s he had an 18 month old baby that he never picked up because he never had the strength to after the accident. He had fallen on cement and had broken his back and neck in several places and was living on 100’s of dollars of pain medication. And I would see him leave my meeting and people would have to help him out he’d come back in 20 minutes later. And people had told me that he has to walk out of the meeting and vomit from the pain it was so excruciating. He came to every meeting that week, morning and night, morning and night and he had to come over on a ferry from an island from of the state of Washington. So he put out effort to touch the hem of the garment of Jesus. And Friday night; I had prayed for him especially Friday morning; I had taught on healing all week in those morning services but he was still walking like he was so I didn’t see that we had seen the manifestation of that healing. But Friday night he was walking to take his seat into the meeting when I was praying up front. Some of us were gathered praying and the glory was already strong before the service began. And we saw him fall over it’s like he walked into a glory cloud and he fell over on his face on the floor and laid their all night without moving. The next day I was staying with some people and I was packing to leave when half of that little church came running in that house screaming and hollering; I couldn’t even understand them at first. And then I heard them yelling “Guess who is leaping and running all over the streets of Friday- Harbor Washington with his young boy on his back, on his shoulders jumping up and down and saying I am totally healed. That young man went home and picked up an ax and chopped wood; he had not been able to do that for almost 2 years. Went on to Bible school and is pasturing in one of the Alaskan Villages today; it was an awesome miracle.
Sid: I’m reminded of the young girl that told that she would go all over the world and preach the gospel and then found herself in a marriage where her husband was mentally and physically abusing her; three small children. No hope whatsoever and today you’re living what looked impossible. Mishpochah God is not a respecter of persons what he did for Debbie He’ll do for you.
Tags: its supernatural, Sid Roth
Sid: Well I’m speaking to Rodney Howard-Brown. He’s minding his own business in South Africa and the fire of God falls on him. God speaks to him even as a young child to come to America; he has this just a compulsion; he comes to the United States, he starts spreading the fire and the 3 greatest revivals in modern times in the United States I see a link where he laid hands on someone that was the catalyst for that revival to occur. And on yesterday’s broadcast Rodney we were talking about having a… on making a decision not to back down. You’re in Africa, you’re praying for some 50 dead people, the first couple of people you pray for no results, nothing whatsoever. What is going on in your mind at that moment Rodney?
Rodney: Well you know in the early days of the ministry you just obey what God says do lay hands on the sick. And when I called for deaf ears, I mean the line just kept getting longer and longer I mean in a remote part of Africa. And the bottom line is look I have nothing to lose; I mean it’s not my reputation it’s the Lord’s. So as I laid my hands on the first few nothing happened but then it just clicked in and the ears began to pop open and we begin to just see miracles. And I prayed for 50 people that day and it was really just phenomenal what the Lord did. And the Lord told me at that time that you just step out and you obey His word, and then He comes and confirms His word.
Sid: Now were many of the deaf people we’re they able to hear?
Rodney: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
Sid: Okay, that’s what I wanted to get. How many would you say approximately?
Rodney: Well it’s a longtime ago you talk about the first years of ministry, but out of the 50 I would say over 80% of them heard.
Sid: But the important point is, and see most believers that are hearing us right now when the first 2 weren’t healed they would have said “Okay, next subject.” (Laughing) I mean there’s something in you that doesn’t give up, am I right?
Rodney: Well it’s God’s word and I know that the Lord does it and it’s got nothing to do with me in the since of I have to be obedient. And there’s reasons why some people are healed and some people aren’t healed but the bottom line is we just go to the Lord in prayer and we let God do exactly what He said He’d do from His word.
Sid: Well, that kind of begs the question, you had a daughter who at a young age I think 18, she died. What did she die from?
Rodney: Well Kelly that’s my middle daughter she died at the age of 18 she died on Christmas Day of 2002. She died in my arms as I sang to her. She was born with Cystic Fibrosis which is a genetic disease that affects the lungs. And we saw many healings over the years but she just ran out of lungs by the time she turned 18 and so she went home to be with Jesus.
Sid: Now some people if that were to happen to them and they’ve seen miracles such I know that you have seen you probably seen multiple times every miracle that you read about in the Bible. A lot of people as a result of that get angry with God; they get bitter; did God show you why she died?
Rodney: Well here’s the thing our faith… Kelly nearly died when she was 11 months, she nearly died when she was 3 years of age. And the fact is that we needed to have a miracle. My wife and I carried her with our faith just past her 18th Birthday and then the moment she turned 18 it was like we couldn’t carry her any more. Plus she had a thing going on with the Lord; we couldn’t get involved in, we tried our best. and you know she’s with Jesus. She is healed, she’s walking the streets of gold; we know exactly where she is. And when I held her in my arms I made a vow that 100 million souls so the devils paying for that one. So it’s not a problem to me; I don’t feel any loss. Obviously we do miss her, but we know exactly where she is. And I often tell people “Listen, there’s many people going through heartache and situations in their life but don’t let that enemy use that opportunity to set you back; rise up in Jesus Name, do the works of Jesus and just keep praying; ministering to people; and the day will come when we all rejoice on the other side.”
Sid: And that’s the way it should be because the truth is the reason we don’t know everything is that we’re not God. And all we’re responsible for is what we do know, and you know to lay hands on the sick and see them recover.
Rodney: Sure.
Sid: Okay Rodney, when all these manifestations broke out at your meetings I imagine that you went through a lot of persecution. I mean personally I had never seen waves of the Holy Spirit with people laughing and row after row. In fact I have to tell you this funny story. I had an uncle that was a professional comedian and he used to watch on televison he would watch… actually when I interviewed you and he would… we would have B row of people laughing hysterically. And he would call me on the phone, and remember he’s a professional comedian. And he would call me on the phone and he would be so vile and so angry with me because he’d say “That guy is not saying anything funny, why are those people falling out of their chairs rolling in the aisles laughing hysterically. I mean and he was angry with me. Now that’s a non-Christian; I can imagine some Christians gave you grief too.
Rodney: Yeah. You know for the most part I mean the people that give the hard time are the religious people who think church should be done a certain way. But you know one thing I know from the Bible we have a Jesus when people went walking and leaping and praising God. And what happened on the day of Pentecost in the Upper Room with a mighty rushing wind and fire falling. But yeah, there’s been persecution but that’s all part of the whole thing of what we are to go through. But the fruit of the ministry remains and I think Jesus made that very plain. He said “You’ll know them by their fruit.” The fruit is evident now around the world churches have sprung up everywhere. I mean they might not look like us or talk like us but many of them will tell you pastors of churches and whole denominations that have sprung up the last, really since ’89. They’ll tell you “I was touched on the floor in a meeting, God spoke to me to start a church. I mean this is all over the planet; so it’s not stuff that I’m making up it’s what we’ve bumped into as we’ve gone along. So our job is just to obey the Lord and do what God tells us to do. Obviously there’s people within the framework of the evangelical movement that only believe in tongues you know if you speak in tongues you aren’t the devil. We can’t even discuss it with those kind of people that don’t even believe in speaking in other tongues. But the fact of the matter is that God is still pouring out His Spirit upon all flesh. We got over 800 million people in the world speaking in other tongues; God is moving by His Spirit and Jesus is coming back for a glorious church.
Sid: You know what the Pentecostal Revival a hundred years ago there was a black 1 eyed preacher that God used to start that fire. And he used to put a cardboard box over his head and he would not take that box off until God told him what he was supposed to do. How does it work with you I’ve never seen the box on your head? But how does it work with you?
Rodney: Well, you know we love worship so we’ll worship and the presence of God will come in and what I do is just like I tell people it’s like flying a kite, you got to find out which way the winds blowing. And then Jesus said “I don’t do anything but I first see My Father do it.” He said “I and My Father and I are one if you’ve seen Me you’ve seen the Father. And so the Bible tells us Jesus spoke the word of God and because He spoke the word of God, God gave Him the Spirit without measure. And obviously we understand that we have the Spirit by measure. Ephesians 4:7 says “But unto every one of us is given grace according to the gift of Christ.” But as we get up and we begin to minister and people place a demand upon the anointing the anointing begins to flow like a river. And the anointing is the presence and the power of God manifest that will touch people right where they are. In their homes they will heal the sick, they will set the captives free, they will destroy every yoke of bondage that will break the power of fear and torment. Get people off of drugs and alcohol, and heal marriages and restore people’s joy and get them off of depression and drugs for depression and deliver them. It’s the anointing that destroys the yoke of bondage. So I just really get up and welcome the Holy Spirit to come lift up Jesus and then anything can happen as we say and probably will, probably will (Laughing)
Sid: Now, I have seen people are your meetings when the presence of God comes on them they can’t even, they’re standing up like giving a testimony or something but then all of a sudden the presence of God is so strong they can’t even speak. How were you able to speak with the presence of God so strong on you?
Rodney: You know, I’ve know I’ve learned to flow with the anointing, but I will tell you this that even now the last couple of weeks I mean I get on the platform and I just start to weep and it’s hard to even speak because of the presence of God is so strong, and your just so humble in His presence. And that’s why I guess the word declares “There’s a joy unspeakable.” It’s very hard to put in to words to people exactly what you’re feeling because we really don’t even know how to explain it’s like an overdose of the love of God. Which as that song says “Great or far eternal pain can never tell, it goes beyond the highest star and reaches to the lowest hell.” The love of God is the most overwhelming thing and the presence of God is overwhelming. And I just feel that everyone just gets “The Touch of God” their whole life is going to change.
Tags: its supernatural, Sid Roth